Right.

Apr. 23rd, 2008 11:04 am
puddingcat: (Shiny pvc ass)
[personal profile] puddingcat
I very rarely post rants here; at least, not thought out ones (absence of "well" is intentional). However, [livejournal.com profile] theferrett's LJ-famous bout of utter stupidity has pushed me into one.

Apologies in advance for any incoherency, comma abuse, footnotes and overuse of brackets. I never was taught how to write an essay.

On my initial reading of the Open Source Boob Project, I thought "Oh, ok. What's the big deal? Not My Thing, but where's the harm?" Then I started reading the comments, and very quickly got my answer. [livejournal.com profile] the_red_shoes has an excellent linkpost here. Pretty much every time Ferrett sets finger to keyboard, he makes it worse. T_R_S, [livejournal.com profile] coffeeandink and [livejournal.com profile] tablesaw have all expanded on the Big, Serious Reasons why it's such a bad, bad idea, so I sha'n't try to copy them. I'll just rant about what it's done to my headspace.

Everybody knows I have less than stellar self-image, in terms of my looks, my personality and my abilities. Most of you know I had a breast reduction 7 years ago; one of the reasons I got it on the NHS was the psychological issues of having random men (and teenage boys) grab my chest as they walked past, or make exceedingly personal comments to me. Only one of those was someone asking politely if he could feel them, and I actually said yes to him; he was a complete stranger but not creepy at all. I felt I could have asked him to stop had he continued too long (he didn't; it felt *entirely* unsexual to me). I have no regrets about that one occasion.

Before the operation, I used to rubber sword LARP. That crowd seems to me very similar to the SF&F convention crowd; that is, mainly socially inept men. Some of them think the world of themselves and live their lives by the Five Geek Social Fallacies, some are like Cat Piss Man, and some go scarlet if a stranger - much less a woman speaks to them.

At the time, there were very few women invlved. Those that were were generally (and I *know* I'll insult people here, and I don't mean to, but it's my recollection) on the large & unfit side, but were excellent LARPers / filkers / writers / re-enactors. Those that weren't go all the male attention In The World.

I'll be the first to admit I wasn't exactly an oil painting; I did no exercise and had a Brian May haircut. But I had large breasts and no self confidence, and didn't realise that male attention could be any other way. I liked the attention I got from showing off my cleavage. I sucked at (and hated) LARPing, but didn't stop in case I lost all my so-called friends.

What the guys (calling them "men" feels wrong; it implies they were adults in mind as well as body) didn't understand, even after having it explained to them, was the sense of hopelessness their ogling engendered in the women they *weren't* fawning all over. As more girls joined the hobby, they got more & more choice targets. They were "only making th new girls feel welcome". Surely we could see how hot the new girl was? *We* were one of the lads; what were we getting upset about? They couldn't understand that it was creepy to watch, shocking to realise what they'd been doing to us, and devastating to realise how much we'd hung our self-images on their treatment of us.

A decade later, post-reduction, at GenCon, not much seemed to have changed. There were a lot more women around, and the "wench" look was very popular. Dressing like a prostitute (a SF&F one; no syphilis scars or rotten teeth) seemed to be the only way to get attention. I don't just mean getting chatted up; I mean attention. The easiest way to get some Me Time was to change into jeans & t-shirt; I could have been curled up on the settee at home.

Again though, I'm torn. I wore my beloved pvc jeans (see userpic) one year and got a fair bit of attention for them. It was, however, good attention. Nobody touched, or asked to touch; they just complimented while being outside my personal space. A couple of the artists were especially nice, and appended their compliments to intelligent conversations, as part of their goodbyes. That's how to make it uncreepy. (And I'm aware that the least creepy people there were the ones with the most successful carers. Coincidence?)

The thing is. The thing is, had someone come up to me while I was dressed up (and not even needing tit tape) and asked to feel my breasts, I don't know if I'd have been able to say No. If he'd been Cat Piss Man, then definitely. If he'd looked like the Ferrett, probably. But if he'd been an average con-going geek (excluding the card gamers here) who'd asked politely, I'm not sure. Partly, I still have trouble seeing my breasts as sexual. For years I'd seen them as unattractive and cartoonish in size, and not part of me at all. Then there was my ongoing self-esteem issue; any attention was better than none, up to a point. Thirdly, people do all sorts of odd stuff at cons; might it have been easier to say yes than to chance them hanging around and pestering me? Fourthly, what if my saying "no" to them discouraged someone I *wanted* to ask from approaching me?

Tht fourth one has me infuriated with myself. I KNOW how awful it is, and yet... The other reasons I'm infuriated with the whole project are similar; they're all to do with my personal self-esteem. It's reminded me how long it's been since anyone propositioned me / complimented me / showed any signs of seeing me as other than asexual. It's made me fear that I'd have been the person asking whether my breasts were "good enough" to be groped by a stranger1, and it's made me hate myself for having that little self-respect. On one hand I'm screaming out that it's male privilege, etc, etc (what I *know*, rationally), and on the other I'm desperately wishing for the validation it could bring and hating myself for being so crap.

In short, it's making me feel like a piece of meat. Not a particularly good one. It's making me miserable about the fact that I'd be put back in favour of a better cut. It's making me spitting mad that that bothers me. It's making me mad that I can't express myself more coherently, and will have forgotten several points I wanted to make. It's making me mad on behalf of the decent people who will have been discouraged from making advances towards someone they genuinely like for fear of being mistaken for one of this sort of person.


ETA Another link via [livejournal.com profile] theyorkshergob.

I told you I'd forget something. Behaviour like this - creepy "bad touching" masquerading as appreciation and admiration - is one of the reasons I've stopped hanging out with the alternative crowd. If I wanted to be eyed up consideringly, I'd go to a fetish club. NOT a goth club and NOT a convention.



(To the gentleman who snogged me thoroughly because I couldn't remember what pepperoni tasted like, NONE of this is directed at you :) I remember it fondly!)

(NB: afk for a few days now; I'm not ignoring anyone who comments. Well, except you.)


1 - Hell, I *would* have been wondering it. I would have been too shy to go up & ask, though. And I hate myself AGAIN for that.

Date: 2008-04-23 11:00 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] vulgarcriminal.livejournal.com
I don't know if I'd have been able to say No

I'd totally agree with this. In days of yore when the attention of random men at cons meant something to me, I'm not sure I could have. The question itself really appeals to the feelings of a lot of female gamers that live in a pretend world because the outside one isn't so nice.

Date: 2008-04-23 11:17 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] puddingcat.livejournal.com
Yes. The gamergeek crowd holds so much value in You'd Love Me Regardless, and yet seems so desperate for validation that they *are* attractive, *really* they are.

I hate using my self esteem issues as a reasn to rant. It's not all about me, dammit!

Date: 2008-04-23 11:05 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] devalmont.livejournal.com
This leaves me very torn. There's an excellent comment on the LJ that you link to, which deals with the criticism of the red badge with the assumption that it shows someone who endorses the project but doesn't wish to be involved.
Of course, being a heterosexual man, the part that leaves me torn is the fact that although ontologically I think the idea has some very unhealthy undertones (and overtones, for that matter), I would love to be able to fondle the breasts of my friends, as I think breasts are awesome.

Date: 2008-04-23 11:15 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] puddingcat.livejournal.com
I think breasts are awesome. But friends' breasts (or bums, or hair) are a whole other category from those of strangers'.

A while ago I was interviewed for Women's Hour about one night stands (a random street interview, not because I'm An Authority!). I said then that I have no problem with them in theory, but that I'd never have one with a person who wasn't at the very least a friend of a friend - because that way, I'd feel safe.

I feel the same about groping / fondling / touching up. Having a friend ask to touch my breasts would be odd, but not scary. Having a friend of a friend ask *in front of that friend* would be odder, but still not walk-away-quickly and try-to-stop-shaking. Having a stranger ask, even if I had one of the green buttons would have me in the toilet wishing for sharper fingernails.

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Date: 2008-04-23 11:06 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] ginasketch.livejournal.com
Yup that's the whole problem. theferrett whines how it's not about "self validation" or "needy women" but can he seriously speak for all of us?

Pretentious prig. His profile is a minefield of stupid too.

Date: 2008-04-23 11:18 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] puddingcat.livejournal.com
Because - because - oh, gah. Incoherent GAH.

Date: 2008-04-23 11:17 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] vulgarcriminal.livejournal.com
ArA on Friday btw!

Date: 2008-04-23 11:18 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] puddingcat.livejournal.com
OMG! Srsly? I'm there! TEXT ME.

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Date: 2008-04-23 11:31 am (UTC)
scribblemoose: image of moose with pen and paper (oh my)
From: [personal profile] scribblemoose
I'm still struggling with the notion that anyone would ever consider it in anyway okay to even ask to touch someone else's breasts outside of a consensual sexual or medical situation - never mind to do it without asking! That's just... GAH!

How would they feel it if we grabbed their package whenever we felt curious, I wonder? *snort*

You have gorgeous breasts, my dear, but they are yours to do with as you please. Flaunt them, cover them up, jiggle them in an enticing manner, whatever you feel like. Many will worship you and them, I'm sure. But God, no-one has the right to touch without a clear invitation!

Date: 2008-04-23 11:54 am (UTC)
From: (Anonymous)
How would they feel it if we grabbed their package whenever we felt curious, I wonder?

I hate to destroy the validity of that point, but for most of us the answer to that question is "Fucking magic!"

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Date: 2008-04-23 12:21 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] puddingcat.livejournal.com
I'm sad that there seems to be no middle ground for people being allowed to ask. This sort of person should definitely not; others I'd be only too happy to allow a good old feel, but would be too shy to invite!

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Date: 2008-04-23 11:31 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] ginasketch.livejournal.com
I agree with you on the alternative scene thing. I find it quite sad that a lot of it has become about sex and vicious backstabbing.

I want to feel comfortable in a goth club dammit.

Date: 2008-04-23 11:50 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] feanelwa.livejournal.com
And showing how alternative you are by being beaten in a club. Just for heaven's sake go away, BDSM exhibitionists, to somewhere that was made for that, instead of assuming everywhere was just because nobody's objected yet!

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Date: 2008-04-23 12:32 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] puddingcat.livejournal.com
Yes. If I wear a corset, I want to get complimented on *the corset* and possibly *me in general* (e.g. "You look great!"), but not specific parts of me.

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Date: 2008-04-23 11:42 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] daegaer.livejournal.com
I remember RPG cons where the few girls present were either considered ogle-material or invisible/one of the lads. There was no middle ground, and there was no way any girl or woman there could influence which group she was in. By which I don't mean that everyone has a type, and some guys like non-pin up girls, but that if, say, a girl wearing a bikini wasn't available to stare at, then baggy t-shirts and jeans and doing an actual con-related job at the time wasn't enough to keep the creeps away. Ugh, UGH.

Date: 2008-04-23 12:24 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] puddingcat.livejournal.com
YES.

I seemed to be in the middle; if I dressed up I got attention, if I didn't, I was nonexistent. I *like* dressing up. I *like* most of the attention it gets me. I *don't* like the assumptions people make as a result of how I dress. Nor do I like that Con-goers are generally too socially inept to hide the fact that they're comparing & judging everyone, and working down their list until they find soemone who'll go along with them. We have eyes. We can see you getting knocked back by everyone else before you approach us.

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Date: 2008-04-23 12:49 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] louiselux.livejournal.com
That whole boob project this has made me feel sick with anger, literally. UGHHHH. I'm so glad you posted about it. Just... Why can't he get a fucking clue about the consequences and implications of what he's suggesting?

Date: 2008-04-23 01:13 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] daegaer.livejournal.com
I sort of hate the world at the moment. ARGH.

Date: 2008-04-23 12:59 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] marcushill.livejournal.com
I think there's a distinct difference between socially inept people who know no better being mildly creepy in their ogling and folk who should know better asking to touch up strangers. Although the former can stoke up those insecurities, you can't really blame them - though it would be nice if someone told them they were being dicks and they learned from their mistakes. The latter, on the other hand, should have some inkling that social pressures can easily get someone to go along with something she's not actually too happy with - and that the more emotionally vulnerable you are, the more likely it is that you'll succumb to those pressures.

On a tangential note, is it worse to ask to touch a friend's boobs or (as a completely random example) to write haiku about them?

Date: 2008-04-30 01:16 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] puddingcat.livejournal.com
In my experience, telling someone they're being a dick can have a range of reactions. If you're tactful, they don't get it (whether through obliviousness or intent). If you're factual and logical about it, they claim that nobody else has said anything (so you're wrong), that they can't help it, or that everyone else is doing it. If you put any sort of personal spin on the request, they come out with Geek Social Fallacy Number Two (or a return personal attack). Then, of course, people tend to be friends with similar people to themselves - so a socially inept person will have similarly socially inept friends, who don't notice / don't see anything wrong / are scared to say anything / etc.

As to your final question, why the fuck are you asking me?

Date: 2008-04-23 01:16 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] pmoodie.livejournal.com
I think you've expressed yourself perfectly.

I'm also now wondering if I've been a creep for making a persistent big deal about your PVC ass icon. I hope you know that I don't see you as a piece of meat. On the other hand, I certainly don't see you as asexual - I think you're gorgeous.

But this whole Boob Project thing is a head-scratcher. On paper, it seems like I shouldn't have a problem with it, but I can't shake this distasteful feeling it gives me.

I just think that if I'm going to fondle a woman's breasts, then I want it to mean something. And if anyone can come up and ask to cop a feel, then it means nothing.

I'm also worried that the point you raise about self esteem and not wanting to be the one who says no would be major factors. How many women would allow themselves to be pawed who didn't really want to, but who felt pressured into going along with it?

Nope, I don't like it.


***Edited to fix various typing disasters.

Date: 2008-04-23 11:10 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] miss-s-b.livejournal.com
Women are subjected to pressure to conform every day. We are supposed to conform in the way we look, the way we comport ourselves, the way we speak and who we speak to.

Perhaps men are subject to similar pressures, I don't know, not being one.

But anyway, women are subject to lots of pressures to conform. Each pressure is cumulative. In an environment which is already pressured (see Jenny's comments above) extra pressure would affect more women than in a normal environment. So yeah, I think lots. But even if it was just one, that would be one too many.

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Date: 2008-04-23 02:04 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] dragonmamma.livejournal.com
As one of the big-boobed brigade I find that whole concept really foul. I have never minded allowing people to fondle my breasts if I so chose. But "I choose" is the point here, not someone else thinking they have any rights one way or the other. I've never had much of a problem with self-esteem as far as that part of my anatomy was concerned, but since the rest of me is overlarge too, my self-esteem with the whole package has never been too good. Mostly males have responded yto me as "Mummy image" which I suppose is not so bad now. No hell, I'd still rather be looked at with an enquiring twinkle in the eye, even tho I am now over 60. But being appreciated sexually doesnt mean being pawed or even ogled. There is a definite difference.

Date: 2008-04-23 02:38 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] pond823.livejournal.com
I've seen this *thing* in a few places and resisted thinking about it until recently. I then let me full bacchanalian instincts have free reign, as a thought exercise. The upshot is, well breasts are amazing (no shit sherlock), but a strangers breasts don't have a patch on the someone you've talked to and liked in someway. There warmth, lustiness, comforting, debauched existence only seems to come through when I think about the person who sports them.

Why oh why are these people mixing metaphors anyway? Go to a dark room in a pervy club and there is no need for stupid badges.

Date: 2008-04-23 03:54 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] bringeroflight.livejournal.com
I tried to mail you and your old hotmail account is no longer in use...

Date: 2008-04-30 01:21 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] puddingcat.livejournal.com
try my username at livejournal dot com :)

Date: 2008-04-23 05:19 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] andre-powell.livejournal.com
Am I just a bit old fashioned (and late into this) but isn't grabbing someones breasts an assault ?
There is rough and tumble with your girlfriend and stuff but to actually wander up and expect to get away with grabbing a someones breasts is just beyond belief.
I may be a totally unreconstructed Man but part of that unreconstructed bit Actually doesn't agree with that kind of behaviour.
My own personal point of view of even a 'polite' request just seems to be so far off the scale as to be entering a linguistic parse failure.

I sometimes just wonder what the fuck is going on these days I really do.

Get tactile if you like and she likes after you have actually shown that there is a bit more to how you feel about her rather than just her physical form.

Shakes head and walks away .....


Date: 2008-04-23 07:21 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] pinkapplejam.livejournal.com
I don't believe any such open-source groping has ever happened at an anime con throughout my 15-16 years of attending them, these events sound a bit uncomfortable to say the least! (Never LARP'ed or RP'ed much. not very good at it and it doesn't hold my interest.)

We can't help how others are gonna react to wimmenly shapez though, but it's sad that you feel that way as whenever I have met you I have always admired your figure :) (I do admit I am gobsmacked by the notion of groping pretending to be a part of RPing though O___o;;;)

Date: 2008-04-23 07:33 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] wyrdness.livejournal.com
With this Open Source Boob Project, my immediate thoughts (without reading most of it, because I'm too lazy) have been "why is it needed?". Last time I checked being fondled/ groped in public wasn't particularly socially acceptable. Even if the people involved consented, it could still be highly objectionable and/ or offensive for witnesses who aren't participating.

It's also one thing for friends to touch each other, often in a joking manner, because they're friends and automatically "safe" (even if it gets out of hand and you say nothing, other friends tend to step in to put it to an end when they notice something is wrong), but with a stranger? I think that's where things can easily blur from "a bit of fun" to "seriously creepy".

Also, like you've mentioned, there will always be women (and men) around who wont know how to say no because they have self-esteem and image problems. Me, I've always been large, unfit and possessing of all the sexual appeal and charm of a dead octopus. I have always been one of the invisible "one of the lads" no matter what group I'm in, so if someone did come up to me and ask to cop a feel I'm really not sure how I'd react to that. I wouldn't want strangers to feel they could take liberties with me, but at the same time would I feel somehow obliged because some one was actually paying me attention?

Date: 2008-04-30 01:23 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] puddingcat.livejournal.com
I wouldn't want strangers to feel they could take liberties with me, but at the same time would I feel somehow obliged because some one was actually paying me attention?

Exactly. It's horrible, realising that I wouldn't say no. That I wouldn't know *how* to say no, because I wouldn't want to upset the asker.

Date: 2008-04-24 01:23 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] zalia.livejournal.com
O_o Man, I find that pretty creepy to be honest. No matter how innocent these guys thing it is, it's still basically groping someone. Personally, I have issues with personal space and touching in general, even just friendly touching and this would really freak me out. Especially if there was this expectation that it's normal and you should be happy to do it.

Date: 2008-04-30 01:29 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] puddingcat.livejournal.com
It's the "right to ask" that creeps me out. Verbal assault is such a difficult thing to pin down, and hiding it under the guise of a compliment makes it even worse.

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