puddingcat | Looking good naked is easy if you already do.

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Looking good naked is easy if you already do.

Hmm.

How To Look Good Naked is a lovely idea, and I really like Gok Wan. The thing is (which I can't write / read without thinking of Aziraphale...), all the people so far look good anyway. Sure, they need a haircut and professional makeup, and the clothes make a difference, but they're all attractive at the start.

What about people with scars? With eczema? Who aren't in proportion? Who are more than a stone overweight?

Bah.

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The lass last week was definitely more than a stone overweight.

Stone and a half, then. She was about the same size as me, I reckon, and I'm a stone and a half more than I should be.

You see I saw her as me scaled up to the height of a normal person and I'm 2 stone overweight (now with a c-section overhang to add to the attractiveness)

I like the women who do the filler shots - they're in a very wide range of shapes and sizes. but yes, I would like to see Gok Wan work his bossy-yet-kind magic on someone who, say, doesn't have good legs. But maybe a whole lot of the thing is that, just like the people stopped on the street, the viewers can say Woman X is attractive, but she herself thinks she's the worst ever - so if a much larger woman was on, maybe she wouldn't actually look so big to the viewers anyway?

the viewers can say Woman X is attractive, but she herself thinks she's the worst ever

Yes, I think that's what's happened so far. I want to see someone who the *viewers* (i.e. me...) agree looked dreadful beforehand get turned into a goddess! I have *huge* issues with letting people see me other than fully clothed. So long as I'm watching & thinking "well, of course she looked good on the catwalk; she had a great body anyway" I'll continue to believe there's nothing I can do to look better in the buff.

But that's the point, I think. All the women on there think the same way you do, and there have been quite a few who were more than a stone overweight. We're quite the devotees in this flat, and so very many times we've all gone 'but she looks fine!' at the before shots. It's all about changing your self image, and that's what he's good at doing. I adore him. :-)

He's good at doing it with the people he sees face to face, but not so much for people watching, I don't think.

there were definitely some ladies last season with teeny boobs and large bums, I think the really important message in the programme is that it's about self-image, which is the thing we are all bad at...

But, but, but! *Waves arms helplessly*

Small boobs & large bums is *normal*. It's easy to dress, it doesn't have the Showing Bare Skin issues that scars or eczema do, nad *isn't* unattractive.

I want a real ugly ducklng to swan transformation, not just a haircut and makeup thing.

Small boobs and bums might be "normal" * but it's not necessarily any easier to dress. I'm three sizes different between boobs and bum, and I have no waist and look permanently 4 months pregnant. Trousers which fit my hips gape wildly at the back, but dig into my stomach when I sit down. Pretty tops sit lower than my nipples. I wear children's bras. No cleavage for me!

I once overheard a boys' conversation which said that the definition of a "minger" was a woman whose stomach stuck out further than her boobs. *raises hand*

We spend all this time and money and effort on covering ourselves up, so we have no idea how other people compare to us when naked. I have scars. I have thread veins. I have a spotty back and bum! I genuinely do look pregnant.

I think the point is that if you were on that show, the entire audience would think you looked just fine on the "before" pictures too! (I also know that this is impossible to believe. It's still true though.)

*it's not - it's what you see because it's the opposite of what you've got. Everyone I see has big boobs and lovely cleavage!

Trousers which fit my hips gape wildly at the back, but dig into my stomach when I sit down.

YES. I hate it.

(My tummy's bigger than yours. I saw the picture of you in the chinese bracade dress!)

Damn, I knew there was something I meant to watch on telly tonight! (We were watching Heroes instead.)

I haven't seen the programme, but the women featured in the book most definitely aren't all in proportion. I've only had a quick flick through it, but it struck me as much more positive than the dreaded Trinny & Suzannah.

Oh, he's *much* lovelier than T&S!

WhenI get my scanner working, I'll post the picture of me pre-breast reduction. I didn't have a visible ribcage, yet was in size 10 shorts. *That's* what I meant by "not in proportion" - think manga girl without the antigravity bra...

Tonight's woman was gorgeous, but had a Clapham Facelift ponytail & no makeup to start with. It really didn't take much to make her look stunning.

How do you react when you are provided with evidence that at least some men consider you fabulous already?

--
Tim Harris
The Seeker
Time Lord

You're very kind, but... (there had to be a "but", right?)

1. I got fat.
2. I dress *very* carefully.
3. Scars. Scars & dermatitis. Not Nice At All.

The only person I've felt less than terrified taking clothes off in front of has worse scarring than I do.

For what it's worth...

My only visual exposure to you has been the pictures Ozzy took, and I totally crushed on you from the moment I saw the first one. That hasn't changed with further exposure to other pictures up to whatever picture of you I have seen that is the most recent (and I have no idea which picture that is).

Yes, you have very large breasts, and I confess that I am just as Neanderthally-wired as the next guy (and perhaps more so) because I do find them very attractive. That's not the beginning or the end of why I find you attractive, however. There is far more to it than that, and I'm going to attempt an explanation.

You have sparkly eyes and a lovely smile. When I saw your eyes and your smile, I knew that at your core, regardless of what mood you might be in at any particular moment (and how dark that mood might be), you are a warm person who is smart enough to know what's going on and courageous enough to care anyway.

I have "gotten to know you" in only a very superficial way through reading your entries (and I'm flattered that you trust me enough to allow me within at least one level of "friends security"), but I have so far read nothing sufficient to provoke doubt in me regarding that initial reflex assessment of your personality.

I haven't forgotten that you've agreed to let me take you out on at least one date if I ever visit the UK. In fact, I have been since first seeing your picture (and remain to this moment) convinced that such a date is itself enough of a reason to visit the UK at least once more in my life.

When I think of you, I don't think in terms of "What if she's really not that pretty in person? What if she's really not that pleasant or smart or witty or fun or blah blah blah?" I think in terms of "What if I disappoint her in some way?" I've already decided you are pretty, pleasant, smart, witty and fun.

So, Miss "I got fat, I dress very carefully and I have scars and dermatitis," know that at least one man — ME — considers you so attractive that you provoke in him an amusing maelstrom of teen angst and insecurity. If he's lucky, you'll consider that absolutely adorable.

Just thought you should know.

--
Tim Harris
The Seeker
Time Lord

Thankyou. Genuinely, thank you.

But the point I'm trying to make is that I genuinely expect people to recoil, make excuses, and leave (then use me as "You'll never guess what..." fodder when talking to their friends) when they see my skin, or me in the morning, or when I' haven't had a chance to put on my "armour", as it were.

I accept all three challenges. You're on. You're so on.

--
Tim Harris
The Seeker
Time Lord

She's disbelieving, or she dismisses them as fools. Silly girl that she is.

Yes. Very silly on that point. :)

--
Tim Harris
The Seeker
Time Lord

Ah - but isn't that what Gok Wan is trying to get women to see? That other people don't see the "buts" at all?

(Note that I am just as bad as anyone else, and pretty much detest my shape, size, hair, feet . . .)

I don't know. He certainly works magic with the people he works with, but I'm not sure it translates well over tv. If everyone's watching and thinking, "Well, of *course* she could do it" and "But I'm worse!" they'll still feel awful about themselves.

Unless they can see someone who they think has the same problems as them transformed, or someone who they think looks *even worse*, I don't think he's going to be successful.

Everybody looks good naked. I haven't seen the show, but from the page you linked to the first thing I would advise that woman would be to take off the underwear that is two sizes too small! For heaven's sake, it makes her look like a trussed ham!

Everybody looks good naked.

Hrm. I'm not sure I agree.

Definitely with you on the underwear thing, though; it's one of the bits "Auntie Gok" makes a real, positive difference with :)

I wish it was as simple as (New Undies)+(Haircut)+(Makeup)=(Looking Good).

Makeup? That's not naked!

I can't think of anything that I would find actively bad on a naked person, short of open wounds and obvious hernias. I think you lot have a different definition of good to me. There are plenty of things I find not attractive on naked people (penises for example), but there is not a requirement on everybody I see to be sexually attractive to me.

I could certainly do with losing a stone (well stone and a half if I'm honest) in weight and toning up those muscles (they're hiding somewhere, I'm sure - down the back of the sofa I believe).

Eczema? Check! Although not too bad unless it's cold weather.

Scars? Check! (No, I'm not saying where...)

I've been told I look good naked and I bet you do too! A lot of how you look (naked or otherwise) is down to self-confidence; if you feel good in yourself, other people around you will notice the difference. Attitude is just as much a factor in how sexy/gorgeous/stunning/beddable you are as your physique is.

all the people so far look good anyway. Sure, they need a haircut and professional makeup, and the clothes make a difference, but they're all attractive at the start.

They may be gorgeous to begin with, but the point is that they don't see it, and need to go through Gok's however-many-step program to be convinced. People who feel that their reasons for not looking fantastic naked are more physical and much harder to scrub, squeeze, blend, or whatever away, are going to take far longer to see their own beauty, and if they're that much entrenched in their belief of ugliness, then they probably need hefty mental makeovers more urgently than image ones, and that's not quite within the reach of the show.

The people with scars and eczema, who are disproportionate and over a stone in weight are just as damn gorgeous as the ones you think are "all attractive at the start". But let's face it, almost every woman I know is going to think that all the girls on the show are beautiful pre-makeover, "not like me, no, my bum/boobs/hip/great slabs of lard are way bigger than hers, my skin's in worse condition, I've had more kids and it shows, blah, blah, blah..."

When the fuck did it become normal for women to detest themselves for these wretched, bullshit reasons? Who told us that an extra stone or five was so ugly, and why did we believe them? Who said that blemishes and scars and stretch marks and the remnants of inescapable, biological processes that are etched in our skin make us so undesirable, and why did we put so much stock into their opinions? Are we so gullible that we'll tick off a list of physical flaws and accept that these defects make us unwanted as lovers, define us as substandard women? Most importantly, how did we allow women to become each other's biggest enemies regarding body image, perpetuating these negative obsessions?

Of course, saying this sort of thing is going to make me sound like some holier-than-thou bitch who's perfect, physically and mentally, and I'm really not. But I don't hate myself for it.

When I was a kid, and up to my early teens when I was becoming more conscious of my body image, I thought I was fat. Huge. Enormous, monstrous, blubber-toting, pie-munching, lard-bucket. The truth is, I was an early developer and slightly overweight. Boobs at age seven, mortification during swimming lessons, that sort of thing. The fact that I was very unfit fed that view of being fatfatfat, though it never occurred to me that people of all sizes can be unfit. The one girl who'd do worse than I did in PE was rather slender, but I was a blinkered fat schoolkid who was obviously going to ignore anything rational.

And so I gradually formed eating patterns that a fat person would have because - hey! I'm already fat, right, this is just how I eat! I gained and gained and gained without quite realising it, because to me I had always been fat and therefore wretched and hideous.

It was only in perhaps the past four years I've come to recognise what I did to myself. I convinced myself I was fat, so I did become fat. From within my perfectly normal and healthy BMI range at age 13 to medically obese as I hit my twenties. I have continued to put on weight because those eating patterns have proved incredibly hard to change. So much harder than quitting smoking cold turkey, this is deeply ingrained stuff. That I taught myself.

[...cont]

Strangely, it's been during the worst periods of my depression (which has been present since roughly age 14), from 20 to now, 24½, that I've become more positive about my body, even though I'm very overweight. (Medically! I am a biologist and I can say that this clinical obesity is seriously endangering my long-term health; when I say I'm overweight I'm not being all whiny does-this-fat-make-my-fat-look-fat?) I can see what I did to myself, I can see how to change this, and I know I'm capable of changing it. Uh, gradually. And not while I'm big-lump-of-coal!depressed, because all that can be done then is staring.

I forget what the fuck the point of this comment rant thing was. Fuck. It's past 3am. So I need to shed one-third of my current body weight to be satisfied that my adipose desposits aren't going to contribute to my premature death and the general discomforts that come with being fat. And yes, that does include room for some good muscle tone that I hope to build. Mmmmmm, actin and myosin! But despite looking "like the side of a bus" as my gran used to say to me in reference to my bulk, I can look at myself naked in the mirror (with difficulty, because it's a small mirror rather than a full-length one, and it's up high so I need to stand on a chair) and think - saggy bits, flab, gut, stray hairs that escaped the razor, stretch marks and self-inflicted scars included - that there should be a godsdamned queue for that shit.

And I really, really wish that more women could do that.

Whoah, I really need some sleep now.

You are fantastic! Your comments made me cheer. Particularly this: When the fuck did it become normal for women to detest themselves for these wretched, bullshit reasons? Who told us that an extra stone or five was so ugly, and why did we believe them? Who said that blemishes and scars and stretch marks and the remnants of inescapable, biological processes that are etched in our skin make us so undesirable, and why did we put so much stock into their opinions? Are we so gullible that we'll tick off a list of physical flaws and accept that these defects make us unwanted as lovers, define us as substandard women? Most importantly, how did we allow women to become each other's biggest enemies regarding body image, perpetuating these negative obsessions?

Jen, I have seen you turkish bathing, and I always think that you are more attractive than me. I quite like my body, but am uncomfortable about the size of certain things, and the marks on my arms, and the hideous reactive fat bumps on my thighs and belly from injecting, but I do know that most people don't see those things, and that the people who do just see them as part of me. Not as something which detracts from me, but just part of this person.

Your scars, and your skin are part of you, and you are the person that we love, and who, very shallowly, we think of as beautiful.
N.

When we went to the baths, I had such amazingly huge bite marks in various places that I'm not surprised nobody noticed anything else!

I also kept my bikini bottoms on.

(You knew I was going to do this, right? :p)

yes, yes, I knew you were going to do this... It's like you're using each comment to convince yourself more of badness. Pah, silly branemeats. Loffs to you

But hey, great excuse for going & getting more fun bruises!

You're amazing :)

The photo I keep threatening to post (me with ginger hair, a tan & not wearing black) made me cry when I dug it out a year ago. I was wearing SIZE 10 shorts, ferchrissakes, and I *still* hated my body & thought I was obese. Now I *know* I'm fatter (I can't get my old riding boots on) and would kill to be that size again.

*My* (badly-expressed) point is that I, personally, am not going to believe I can look good naked until Auntie Gok works his magic on someone who *I* think has the same problems as me, to the same extent as me. Self-centred, yes, but I can't believe I'm the only one.

So let's apply. You and me both. See if they really are looking for a stereotype with something they can already work with.

*lets the icon make the comment*

I'm trying to get my head wrapped around the fact there's a TV programme that's trying to convince women to be happy with themselves FOR themselves... And it's a TV programme.

TV. Programme.

Broadcast to millions.

And that's where it swallows its own tail, because then it becomes a show about convincing women to be happy with themselves for the benefit of a dozen TV cameras and a passive audience of private critics.

Umm, yeah. *scratches head*

Ah; and also to walk down a catwalk in the Trafford Centre, in their undies, in front of an audience of 2,000 (including a few family & friends).

It's a lovely idea, but I'm not sure it works for anyone other than the people *actually* involved.

Er, yeah. So it's not so much about homing in on and tuning out social psychoses in the individual annnnnnd more about seeking out innate socially recognisble exhibitionist tendencies.

Ta. *headdesks*

Though, I do say that as someone who doesn't give a shit about what they look like - nekkid or clothed - 'cause no one's looking anyway.

Hell, the sad fact is that most real people don't look good naked.

This is presumably one of the reasons we invented clothes.

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